[Rockhounds] DIY XRD?
Axel Emmermann
axel.emmermann at pandora.be
Sun Oct 26 09:42:38 PDT 2008
I'm not sure if that's at all possible (but I've been wrong before ;-)))
The "softest" X-ray are situated around 10 nm.
This calculates to 124 eV. So MOST of the free electrons would have to be
accelerated through an electric field of 124 Volts to acquire enough energy
to generate X-rays.
Oh heck, these guys are probably slightly better equipped in the brain
department ;-)))
Still, you should have a look at the Casimir effect... it's a real weird
corner of reality.
Cheers
Axel
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com]
> Namens Kreigh Tomaszewski
> Verzonden: zaterdag 25 oktober 2008 4:43
> Aan: Rockhounds at drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors
> Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] DIY XRD?
>
> According to the article I posted...
>
> In the new work, a machine peeled ordinary Scotch tape off a
> roll in a vacuum chamber at about 1.2 inches per second. Rapid
> pulses of X-rays, each about a billionth of a second long,
> emerged from very close to where the tape was coming off the
> roll.
> That's where electrons jumped from the roll to the sticky
> underside of the tape that was being pulled away, a journey of
> about two-thousandths of an inch, Escobar said. When those
> electrons struck the sticky side they slowed down, and that
> slowing made them emit X-rays.
> "We were very surprised," said Juan Escobar. "The power you
> could get from just peeling tape was enormous."
>
> Peeling tape is breaking a lot of bonds. That energy has to go
> somewhere. There is no need to invoke vacuum quantum fluctuations.
>
> Kreigh
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, Oct 24, 2008, at 12:50 America/Detroit, Axel Emmermann wrote:
>
> > Hm, bremsstrahlung means that some CHARGED particle is being crashed
> > into a
> > medium which slows it down. The released energy is then observed as
> > bremsstrahlung.
> > The same with synchrotron radiation... you need a charged particle
> > moving at
> > relativistic speed.
> > I can't see a roll of tape producing fast moving electrons, protons or
> > alpha-particles.
> >
> > I do see however smooth thin surfaces pressed together with vacuum
> > quantum
> > fluctuations trying to push the surfaces together. The same source that
> > drives the accelerating expansion of the universe may generate the
> > X-rays.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Axel Emmermann
> > European Regional Vice President of the
> > Fluorescent Mineral Society
> > <http://www.uvminerals.org/>
> > =========================
> > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen/Antwerp Mineralogical Society
> > <http://www.minerant.org/index.html>
> > Werkgroepleider/Workgroup leader: Fluorescerende mineralen/Fluorescent
> > minerals
> > Technische Realisaties/Engineering
> > My website:<http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/>
> >
> >
> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> >> Van: rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com
> > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com]
> >> Namens J Bryan Kramer
> >> Verzonden: vrijdag 24 oktober 2008 16:57
> >> Aan: Rockhounds at drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem
> >> collectors
> >> Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] DIY XRD?
> >>
> >> My guess is that it is Bremsstrahlung
> >>
> >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung>
> >>
> >> See the section on secondary radiation. That would imply softer X-rays
> > than
> >> you would get from a metal target. In the air the energy is probably
> >> dissapated ionizing the air molecules and you get light flashes. You
> >> can
> > see
> >> those by taking a roll of tape into a dark closet and jerking some
> >> off the
> >> roll. You'll see blue flashes: triboluminescence.
> >>
> >> <http://pages.towson.edu/ladon/wg/candywww.htm>
> >>
> >> For some fun experiments.
> >>
> >> BK
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:37, Axel Emmermann
> > <axel.emmermann at pandora.be>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Kreigh and Brian
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There are X-rays generated but what else?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There are only a few ways to generate X-rays:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 1. Heat. The longest X-ray wavelengths are situated around 10
> >>> nm.
> >>> To
> >>> have anything emit x-rays, you must heat it to at least a few 100.000
> >>> degrees.
> >>> I don't think that we can reach that amount of heat by tearing of a
> > piece
> >>> of
> >>> tape, not even in vacuum.
> >>>
> >>> 2. ionizing atoms (K and L levels for lighter atoms, M,N, O for
> >>> heavier elements) and have them fall back to ground state.
> >>> You'd need a X-ray source to do that. Pulling off a piece of tape
> >>> from a
> >>> roll would break some bonds in the glue but that would affect only
> >>> the
> >>> outer
> >>> electrons.
> >>>
> >>> 3. Changing the speed and direction of a charged particle
> >>> moving
> > at
> >>> relativistic speed.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> All other sources would be some disguised form of the above
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There may be another explanation for the radiation that lies outside
> >>> the
> >>> properties of matter . I believe that it could be space itself that
> >>> generates the radiation.
> >>>
> >>> I'd go looking for an explanation in the field of quantum fluctuation
> > and
> >>> Casimir-effect.
> >>>
> >>> It would explain why the phenomenon only occurs in vacuum.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Axel Emmermann
> >>>
> >>> European Regional Vice President of the
> >>>
> >>> Fluorescent Mineral Society
> >>>
> >>> <http://www.uvminerals.org/>
> >>>
> >>> =========================
> >>>
> >>> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen/Antwerp Mineralogical Society
> >>>
> >>> <http://www.minerant.org/index.html>
> >>>
> >>> Werkgroepleider/Workgroup leader: Fluorescerende
> >>> mineralen/Fluorescent
> >>> minerals
> >>>
> >>> Technische Realisaties/Engineering
> >>>
> >>> My website:<http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> >>>
> >>>> Van: rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com
> >>> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com]
> >>>
> >>>> Namens Kreigh Tomaszewski
> >>>
> >>>> Verzonden: vrijdag 24 oktober 2008 6:34
> >>>
> >>>> Aan: Rockhounds at drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem
> > collectors
> >>>
> >>>> Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] DIY XRD?
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>> The x-rays are produced in a fairly narrow beam because of the angle
> >>>
> >>>> between the tape roll and the tape being pulled off it.
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Thursday, Oct 23, 2008, at 09:55 America/Detroit,
> >>>> Pmodreski at aol.com
> >>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>>> Ah, yes, now, let's not throw too much cold water on Kreigh's cool
> >>>
> >>>>> idea.
> >>>
> >>>>> Who knows, "in theory" it might work, but in practice... yeah, the
> >>>
> >>>>> amount of
> >>>
> >>>>> X-rays produced are probably very miniscule, and although in theory
> >>>
> >>>>> one might
> >>>
> >>>>> filter out just one wavelength of X-rays, in practice what one is
> >>>
> >>>>> starting
> >>>
> >>>>> with is probably too spread over a range of X-ray wavelengths, to
> >>>>> be
> >>>
> >>>>> useful.
> >>>
> >>>>> And the X-rays are probably emitted in all directions, not focused
> >>>
> >>>>> geometrically at all, so by the time one collimated just the ones
> >>>
> >>>>> traveling in a
> >>>
> >>>>> particular direction toward the sample, one would again lose 99% of
> >>>
> >>>>> the tiny amount
> >>>
> >>>>> that had been produced... There was also the caveat in the story,
> >>>
> >>>>> that the
> >>>
> >>>>> X-rays were only detectable when the experiment was done in a
> >>>>> vacuum
> >>>
> >>>>> chamber.
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>> I wonder, if a miniscule amount of X-rays are produced in any
> >>>
> >>>>> electrical
> >>>
> >>>>> discharge, where high-voltage electrons are hitting something; as
> >>>>> in
> > a
> >>>
> >>>>> lightning
> >>>
> >>>>> bolt, or even, in a static electricity discharge when you shuffle
> >>>
> >>>>> across the
> >>>
> >>>>> rug and touch your finger to something metal? Seems like that and
> >>>
> >>>>> the Scotch
> >>>
> >>>>> Tape, are just different versions of the same thing. That would
> >>>>> be
> >>>
> >>>>> even
> >>>
> >>>>> the simpler way to generate the X-rays for Kreigh's homemade
> >>>
> >>>>> mini-diffractometer!
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>> Cheers, and keep at it, Kreigh,
> >>>
> >>>>> Pete
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>> In a message dated 10/22/2008 7:49:23 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
> >>>
> >>>>> Kreigh at tomaszewski.net writes:
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>> Bryan,
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>> The Bragg Equation requires the wavelength. Coherent x-rays from
> >>>>> an
> >>>
> >>>>> incoherent source are fairly easy to produce using a small
> >>>>> aperture
> >>>
> >>>>> monochromator. That problem was solved about a hundred years ago.
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>> I agree that the real problem is the energy. There has to be
> >>>>> enough
> > at
> >>>
> >>>>> some wavelength to produce a detectable beam out of the filtered
> >>>
> >>>>> source. I assume there is enough since they were able to x-ray a
> >>>
> >>>>> finger, but it might require a slower scan than a commercial unit;
> > it
> >>>
> >>>>> is easy to make x-ray detection cumulative.
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>> How long will a roll of tape last? How many times can it be
> >>>>> reused?
> > I
> >>>
> >>>>> would be really happy to be able to get an analysis for the cost
> >>>>> of
> > a
> >>>
> >>>>> roll of tape.
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>> Kreigh
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>> On Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008, at 20:58 America/Detroit, J Bryan
> > Kramer
> >>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>> Doesn't x-ray energy/wavelength make a difference for x-ray
> >>>
> >>>>>> diffraction? I
> >>>
> >>>>>> read that scotch tape article and it didn't sound like you could
> >>>
> >>>>>> control
> >>>
> >>>>>> much beyond being able to produce some sort of x-rays in bursts.
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>> BK
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 20:44, Kreigh Tomaszewski
> >>>
> >>>>>> <Kreigh at tomaszewski.net>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>> I've often wished I could move a lab into my basement and do
> > x-ray
> >>>
> >>>>>>> analysis
> >>>
> >>>>>>> of minerals, but cost makes it just a dream.
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>> Now it has been discovered that unrolling scotch take in a
> >>>>>>> vacuum
> >>>
> >>>>>>> produces
> >>>
> >>>>>>> x-rays.
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081022/ap_on_sc/>>>
> >>> sci_scotch_tape_surprise
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>> Using a roll of tape, a small motor to unwind it, and a vacuum
> > pump,
> >>>
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>
> >>>>>>> produce a source of x-rays turns the dream into a possible do it
> >>>
> >>>>>>> yourself
> >>>
> >>>>>>> project.
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>> The database for comparison against known minerals is available
> > at
> >>>
> >>>>>>> places
> >>>
> >>>>>>> such as http://rruff.geo.arizona.edu/AMS/amcsd.php. The rest of
> > the
> >>>
> >>>>>>> details are relatively trivial once you have a source of
> >>>>>>> x-rays.
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> > http://productsearch.machinedesign.com/mdproducts/x_ray_diffraction
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>> Anybody interested in a science project?
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>> Kreigh
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>> "The thunderbolt falls on an inch of ground; but the light of it
> >>>
> >>>>>> fills
> >>>
> >>>>>> the
> >>>
> >>>>>> horizon."
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>> Ralph Waldo Emerson
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>> J Bryan Krämer
> >>>
> >>>>>> North Florida, USA
> >>>
> >>>>>> photos at:
> >>>
> >>>>>> http://pbase.com/photoburner
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
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> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >> "The thunderbolt falls on an inch of ground; but the light of it
> >> fills the
> >> horizon."
> >>
> >> Ralph Waldo Emerson
> >>
> >> J Bryan Krämer
> >> North Florida, USA
> >> photos at:
> >> http://pbase.com/photoburner
> >>
> >>
> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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