[Rockhounds] DIY XRD?

Axel Emmermann axel.emmermann at pandora.be
Sat Oct 25 09:57:24 PDT 2008 

Yes, they would have to be accelerated to serious speeds. I could imagine
that tape could generate a mild static charge but that would not nearly be
enough to generate X-rays over short distances.
The XRF that I work with uses a 60 KV tube to accelerate the electrons over
a distance of about 40 cm. A few coulombs confined to a few micrometers just
won't do the job, I'm afraid ;-)))

Axel


> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com]
> Namens J Bryan Kramer
> Verzonden: vrijdag 24 oktober 2008 20:13
> Aan: Rockhounds at drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors
> Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] DIY XRD?
> 
> Well the descriptions of the process all say the source is free electrons,
> and if these electrons are producing even soft x-rays they must be moving
> rather fast wouldn't you say Axel?
> 
> BK
> 
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 12:50, Axel Emmermann
<axel.emmermann at pandora.be>wrote:
> 
> > Hm, bremsstrahlung means that some CHARGED particle is being crashed
into a
> > medium which slows it down. The released energy is then observed as
> > bremsstrahlung.
> > The same with synchrotron radiation... you need a charged particle
moving
> > at
> > relativistic speed.
> > I can't see a roll of tape producing fast moving electrons, protons or
> > alpha-particles.
> >
> > I do see however smooth thin surfaces pressed together with vacuum
quantum
> > fluctuations trying to push the surfaces together. The same source that
> > drives the accelerating expansion of the universe may generate the
X-rays.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Axel Emmermann
> > European Regional Vice President of the
> > Fluorescent Mineral Society
> > <http://www.uvminerals.org/>
> > =========================
> > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen/Antwerp Mineralogical Society
> > <http://www.minerant.org/index.html>
> > Werkgroepleider/Workgroup leader: Fluorescerende mineralen/Fluorescent
> > minerals
> > Technische Realisaties/Engineering
> > My website:<http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/>
> >
> >
> > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > > Van: rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com
> > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com]
> > > Namens J Bryan Kramer
> > > Verzonden: vrijdag 24 oktober 2008 16:57
> > > Aan: Rockhounds at drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem
collectors
> > > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] DIY XRD?
> > >
> > > My guess is that it is Bremsstrahlung
> > >
> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung>
> > >
> > > See the section on secondary radiation. That would imply softer X-rays
> > than
> > > you would get from a metal target. In the air the energy is probably
> > > dissapated ionizing the air molecules and you get light flashes. You
can
> > see
> > > those by taking a roll of tape into a dark closet and jerking some off
> > the
> > > roll. You'll see blue flashes: triboluminescence.
> > >
> > > <http://pages.towson.edu/ladon/wg/candywww.htm>
> > >
> > > For some fun experiments.
> > >
> > > BK
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:37, Axel Emmermann
> > <axel.emmermann at pandora.be>wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Kreigh and Brian
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There are X-rays generated but what else?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There are only a few ways to generate X-rays:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1.        Heat. The longest X-ray wavelengths are situated around 10
> > nm.
> > > >  To
> > > > have anything emit x-rays, you must heat it to at least a few
100.000
> > > > degrees.
> > > > I don't think that we can reach that amount of heat by tearing of a
> > piece
> > > > of
> > > > tape, not even in vacuum.
> > > >
> > > > 2.       ionizing atoms (K and L levels for lighter atoms, M,N, O
for
> > > > heavier elements) and have them fall back to ground state.
> > > > You'd need a X-ray source to do that. Pulling off a piece of tape
from
> > a
> > > > roll would break some bonds in the glue but that would affect only
the
> > > > outer
> > > > electrons.
> > > >
> > > > 3.       Changing the speed and direction of a charged particle
moving
> > at
> > > > relativistic speed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > All other sources would be some disguised form of the above

> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There may be another explanation for the radiation that lies outside
> > the
> > > > properties of matter . I believe that it could be space itself that
> > > > generates the radiation.
> > > >
> > > > I'd go looking for an explanation in the field of quantum
fluctuation
> > and
> > > > Casimir-effect.
> > > >
> > > > It would explain why the phenomenon only occurs in vacuum.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Axel Emmermann
> > > >
> > > > European Regional Vice President of the
> > > >
> > > > Fluorescent Mineral Society
> > > >
> > > > <http://www.uvminerals.org/>
> > > >
> > > > =========================
> > > >
> > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen/Antwerp Mineralogical Society
> > > >
> > > > <http://www.minerant.org/index.html>
> > > >
> > > > Werkgroepleider/Workgroup leader: Fluorescerende
mineralen/Fluorescent
> > > > minerals
> > > >
> > > > Technische Realisaties/Engineering
> > > >
> > > > My website:<http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > > >
> > > > > Van: rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com
> > > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com]
> > > >
> > > > > Namens Kreigh Tomaszewski
> > > >
> > > > > Verzonden: vrijdag 24 oktober 2008 6:34
> > > >
> > > > > Aan: Rockhounds at drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem
> > collectors
> > > >
> > > > > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] DIY XRD?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > The x-rays are produced in a fairly narrow beam because of the
angle
> > > >
> > > > > between the tape roll and the tape being pulled off it.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Thursday, Oct 23, 2008, at 09:55 America/Detroit,
> > Pmodreski at aol.com
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Ah, yes, now, let's not throw too much cold water on Kreigh's
cool
> > > >
> > > > > > idea.
> > > >
> > > > > > Who knows, "in theory" it might work, but in practice... yeah,
the
> > > >
> > > > > > amount of
> > > >
> > > > > > X-rays produced are probably very miniscule, and although in
theory
> > > >
> > > > > > one might
> > > >
> > > > > > filter out just one wavelength of X-rays, in practice what one
is
> > > >
> > > > > > starting
> > > >
> > > > > > with is probably too spread over a range of X-ray wavelengths,
to
> > be
> > > >
> > > > > > useful.
> > > >
> > > > > > And the X-rays are probably emitted in all directions, not
focused
> > > >
> > > > > > geometrically at all, so by the time one collimated just the
ones
> > > >
> > > > > > traveling in a
> > > >
> > > > > > particular direction toward the sample, one would again lose 99%
of
> > > >
> > > > > > the tiny  amount
> > > >
> > > > > > that had been produced...  There was also the caveat in the
story,
> > > >
> > > > > > that the
> > > >
> > > > > > X-rays were only detectable when the experiment was done in a
> > vacuum
> > > >
> > > > > > chamber.
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > I wonder, if a miniscule amount of X-rays are produced in any
> > > >
> > > > > > electrical
> > > >
> > > > > > discharge, where high-voltage electrons are hitting something;
as
> > in
> > a
> > > >
> > > > > > lightning
> > > >
> > > > > > bolt, or even, in a static electricity discharge when you
shuffle
> > > >
> > > > > > across the
> > > >
> > > > > > rug  and touch your finger to something metal?  Seems like that
and
> > > >
> > > > > > the Scotch
> > > >
> > > > > >  Tape, are just different versions of the same thing.  That
would
> > be
> > > >
> > > > > > even
> > > >
> > > > > > the simpler way to generate the X-rays for Kreigh's homemade
> > > >
> > > > > > mini-diffractometer!
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Cheers, and keep at it, Kreigh,
> > > >
> > > > > > Pete
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > In a message dated 10/22/2008 7:49:23 P.M. Mountain Daylight
Time,
> > > >
> > > > > > Kreigh at tomaszewski.net writes:
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Bryan,
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > The Bragg Equation requires the wavelength. Coherent  x-rays
from
> > an
> > > >
> > > > > > incoherent source are fairly easy to produce using a small
> >  aperture
> > > >
> > > > > > monochromator. That problem was solved about a hundred years
ago.
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > I agree that the real problem is the energy. There has to be
> >  enough
> > at
> > > >
> > > > > > some wavelength to produce a detectable beam out of the filtered
> > > >
> > > > > > source. I assume there is enough since they were able to x-ray a
> > > >
> > > > > > finger, but it might require a slower scan than a commercial
unit;
> > it
> > > >
> > > > > > is easy to make x-ray detection cumulative.
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > How long will a roll of  tape last? How many times can it be
> > reused?
> > I
> > > >
> > > > > > would be really happy to be  able to get an analysis for the
cost
> > of
> > a
> > > >
> > > > > > roll of  tape.
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Kreigh
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > On Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008, at 20:58  America/Detroit, J Bryan
> > Kramer
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >> Doesn't x-ray  energy/wavelength make a difference for x-ray
> > > >
> > > > > >> diffraction? I
> > > >
> > > > > >>  read that scotch tape article and it didn't sound like you
could
> > > >
> > > > > >>  control
> > > >
> > > > > >> much beyond being able to produce some sort of x-rays in
bursts.
> > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > > >> BK
> > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > > >> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 20:44,  Kreigh Tomaszewski
> > > >
> > > > > >>  <Kreigh at tomaszewski.net>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > > >>> I've often wished I  could move a lab into my basement and do
> > x-ray
> > > >
> > > > > >>>  analysis
> > > >
> > > > > >>> of minerals, but cost makes it just a  dream.
> > > >
> > > > > >>>
> > > >
> > > > > >>> Now it has been discovered that unrolling  scotch take in a
> > vacuum
> > > >
> > > > > >>> produces
> > > >
> > > > > >>>  x-rays.
> > > >
> > > > > >>>
> > > >
> > > > > >>>
> > > >
> > > > > >>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081022/ap_on_sc/>>>
> > > > sci_scotch_tape_surprise
> > > >
> > > > > >>>
> > > >
> > > > > >>>  Using a roll of tape, a small motor to unwind it, and a
vacuum
> > pump,
> > > >
> > > > > >>> to
> > > >
> > > > > >>> produce a source of x-rays turns the dream into a  possible do
it
> > > >
> > > > > >>> yourself
> > > >
> > > > > >>>  project.
> > > >
> > > > > >>>
> > > >
> > > > > >>> The database for comparison against known  minerals is
available
> > at
> > > >
> > > > > >>> places
> > > >
> > > > > >>> such as  http://rruff.geo.arizona.edu/AMS/amcsd.php. The rest
of
> > the
> > > >
> > > > > >>>  details are relatively trivial once you have a source of
> >  x-rays.
> > > >
> > > > > >>>
> > > >
> > > > > >>>
> > http://productsearch.machinedesign.com/mdproducts/x_ray_diffraction
> > > >
> > > > > >>>
> > > >
> > > > > >>>  Anybody interested in a science project?
> > > >
> > > > > >>>
> > > >
> > > > > >>>  Kreigh
> > > >
> > > > > >>>
> > > >
> > > > > >>>
> > > >
> > > > > >>> --
> > > >
> > > > > >>>  _______________________________________________
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > > >>  --
> > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > > >> "The thunderbolt falls on an inch of ground; but  the light of
it
> > > >
> > > > > >> fills
> > > >
> > > > > >> the
> > > >
> > > > > >> horizon."
> > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > > >>    Ralph Waldo Emerson
> > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > > >> J Bryan Krämer
> > > >
> > > > > >> North Florida,  USA
> > > >
> > > > > >> photos at:
> > > >
> > > > > >>  http://pbase.com/photoburner
> > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > > >>
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> 
> 
> "The thunderbolt falls on an inch of ground; but the light of it fills the
> horizon."
> 
>                        Ralph Waldo Emerson
> 
> J Bryan Krämer
> North Florida, USA
> photos at:
> http://pbase.com/photoburner
> 
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