[Rockhounds] DIY XRD?
J Bryan Kramer
codeburner at gmail.com
Fri Oct 24 11:13:18 PDT 2008
Well the descriptions of the process all say the source is free electrons,
and if these electrons are producing even soft x-rays they must be moving
rather fast wouldn't you say Axel?
BK
On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 12:50, Axel Emmermann <axel.emmermann at pandora.be>wrote:
> Hm, bremsstrahlung means that some CHARGED particle is being crashed into a
> medium which slows it down. The released energy is then observed as
> bremsstrahlung.
> The same with synchrotron radiation... you need a charged particle moving
> at
> relativistic speed.
> I can't see a roll of tape producing fast moving electrons, protons or
> alpha-particles.
>
> I do see however smooth thin surfaces pressed together with vacuum quantum
> fluctuations trying to push the surfaces together. The same source that
> drives the accelerating expansion of the universe may generate the X-rays.
>
> Cheers
>
> Axel Emmermann
> European Regional Vice President of the
> Fluorescent Mineral Society
> <http://www.uvminerals.org/>
> =========================
> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen/Antwerp Mineralogical Society
> <http://www.minerant.org/index.html>
> Werkgroepleider/Workgroup leader: Fluorescerende mineralen/Fluorescent
> minerals
> Technische Realisaties/Engineering
> My website:<http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/>
>
>
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com
> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com]
> > Namens J Bryan Kramer
> > Verzonden: vrijdag 24 oktober 2008 16:57
> > Aan: Rockhounds at drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors
> > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] DIY XRD?
> >
> > My guess is that it is Bremsstrahlung
> >
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung>
> >
> > See the section on secondary radiation. That would imply softer X-rays
> than
> > you would get from a metal target. In the air the energy is probably
> > dissapated ionizing the air molecules and you get light flashes. You can
> see
> > those by taking a roll of tape into a dark closet and jerking some off
> the
> > roll. You'll see blue flashes: triboluminescence.
> >
> > <http://pages.towson.edu/ladon/wg/candywww.htm>
> >
> > For some fun experiments.
> >
> > BK
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:37, Axel Emmermann
> <axel.emmermann at pandora.be>wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Kreigh and Brian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There are X-rays generated but what else?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There are only a few ways to generate X-rays:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 1. Heat. The longest X-ray wavelengths are situated around 10
> nm.
> > > To
> > > have anything emit x-rays, you must heat it to at least a few 100.000
> > > degrees.
> > > I don't think that we can reach that amount of heat by tearing of a
> piece
> > > of
> > > tape, not even in vacuum.
> > >
> > > 2. ionizing atoms (K and L levels for lighter atoms, M,N, O for
> > > heavier elements) and have them fall back to ground state.
> > > You'd need a X-ray source to do that. Pulling off a piece of tape from
> a
> > > roll would break some bonds in the glue but that would affect only the
> > > outer
> > > electrons.
> > >
> > > 3. Changing the speed and direction of a charged particle moving
> at
> > > relativistic speed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > All other sources would be some disguised form of the above…
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There may be another explanation for the radiation that lies outside
> the
> > > properties of matter . I believe that it could be space itself that
> > > generates the radiation.
> > >
> > > I'd go looking for an explanation in the field of quantum fluctuation
> and
> > > Casimir-effect.
> > >
> > > It would explain why the phenomenon only occurs in vacuum.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Axel Emmermann
> > >
> > > European Regional Vice President of the
> > >
> > > Fluorescent Mineral Society
> > >
> > > <http://www.uvminerals.org/>
> > >
> > > =========================
> > >
> > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen/Antwerp Mineralogical Society
> > >
> > > <http://www.minerant.org/index.html>
> > >
> > > Werkgroepleider/Workgroup leader: Fluorescerende mineralen/Fluorescent
> > > minerals
> > >
> > > Technische Realisaties/Engineering
> > >
> > > My website:<http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > >
> > > > Van: rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com
> > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com]
> > >
> > > > Namens Kreigh Tomaszewski
> > >
> > > > Verzonden: vrijdag 24 oktober 2008 6:34
> > >
> > > > Aan: Rockhounds at drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem
> collectors
> > >
> > > > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] DIY XRD?
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > The x-rays are produced in a fairly narrow beam because of the angle
> > >
> > > > between the tape roll and the tape being pulled off it.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > On Thursday, Oct 23, 2008, at 09:55 America/Detroit,
> Pmodreski at aol.com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > > Ah, yes, now, let's not throw too much cold water on Kreigh's cool
> > >
> > > > > idea.
> > >
> > > > > Who knows, "in theory" it might work, but in practice... yeah, the
> > >
> > > > > amount of
> > >
> > > > > X-rays produced are probably very miniscule, and although in theory
> > >
> > > > > one might
> > >
> > > > > filter out just one wavelength of X-rays, in practice what one is
> > >
> > > > > starting
> > >
> > > > > with is probably too spread over a range of X-ray wavelengths, to
> be
> > >
> > > > > useful.
> > >
> > > > > And the X-rays are probably emitted in all directions, not focused
> > >
> > > > > geometrically at all, so by the time one collimated just the ones
> > >
> > > > > traveling in a
> > >
> > > > > particular direction toward the sample, one would again lose 99% of
> > >
> > > > > the tiny amount
> > >
> > > > > that had been produced... There was also the caveat in the story,
> > >
> > > > > that the
> > >
> > > > > X-rays were only detectable when the experiment was done in a
> vacuum
> > >
> > > > > chamber.
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > I wonder, if a miniscule amount of X-rays are produced in any
> > >
> > > > > electrical
> > >
> > > > > discharge, where high-voltage electrons are hitting something; as
> in
> a
> > >
> > > > > lightning
> > >
> > > > > bolt, or even, in a static electricity discharge when you shuffle
> > >
> > > > > across the
> > >
> > > > > rug and touch your finger to something metal? Seems like that and
> > >
> > > > > the Scotch
> > >
> > > > > Tape, are just different versions of the same thing. That would
> be
> > >
> > > > > even
> > >
> > > > > the simpler way to generate the X-rays for Kreigh's homemade
> > >
> > > > > mini-diffractometer!
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > Cheers, and keep at it, Kreigh,
> > >
> > > > > Pete
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > In a message dated 10/22/2008 7:49:23 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
> > >
> > > > > Kreigh at tomaszewski.net writes:
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > Bryan,
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > The Bragg Equation requires the wavelength. Coherent x-rays from
> an
> > >
> > > > > incoherent source are fairly easy to produce using a small
> aperture
> > >
> > > > > monochromator. That problem was solved about a hundred years ago.
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > I agree that the real problem is the energy. There has to be
> enough
> at
> > >
> > > > > some wavelength to produce a detectable beam out of the filtered
> > >
> > > > > source. I assume there is enough since they were able to x-ray a
> > >
> > > > > finger, but it might require a slower scan than a commercial unit;
> it
> > >
> > > > > is easy to make x-ray detection cumulative.
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > How long will a roll of tape last? How many times can it be
> reused?
> I
> > >
> > > > > would be really happy to be able to get an analysis for the cost
> of
> a
> > >
> > > > > roll of tape.
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > Kreigh
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > On Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008, at 20:58 America/Detroit, J Bryan
> Kramer
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >> Doesn't x-ray energy/wavelength make a difference for x-ray
> > >
> > > > >> diffraction? I
> > >
> > > > >> read that scotch tape article and it didn't sound like you could
> > >
> > > > >> control
> > >
> > > > >> much beyond being able to produce some sort of x-rays in bursts.
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >> BK
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 20:44, Kreigh Tomaszewski
> > >
> > > > >> <Kreigh at tomaszewski.net>wrote:
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >>> I've often wished I could move a lab into my basement and do
> x-ray
> > >
> > > > >>> analysis
> > >
> > > > >>> of minerals, but cost makes it just a dream.
> > >
> > > > >>>
> > >
> > > > >>> Now it has been discovered that unrolling scotch take in a
> vacuum
> > >
> > > > >>> produces
> > >
> > > > >>> x-rays.
> > >
> > > > >>>
> > >
> > > > >>>
> > >
> > > > >>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081022/ap_on_sc/>>>
> > > sci_scotch_tape_surprise
> > >
> > > > >>>
> > >
> > > > >>> Using a roll of tape, a small motor to unwind it, and a vacuum
> pump,
> > >
> > > > >>> to
> > >
> > > > >>> produce a source of x-rays turns the dream into a possible do it
> > >
> > > > >>> yourself
> > >
> > > > >>> project.
> > >
> > > > >>>
> > >
> > > > >>> The database for comparison against known minerals is available
> at
> > >
> > > > >>> places
> > >
> > > > >>> such as http://rruff.geo.arizona.edu/AMS/amcsd.php. The rest of
> the
> > >
> > > > >>> details are relatively trivial once you have a source of
> x-rays.
> > >
> > > > >>>
> > >
> > > > >>>
> http://productsearch.machinedesign.com/mdproducts/x_ray_diffraction
> > >
> > > > >>>
> > >
> > > > >>> Anybody interested in a science project?
> > >
> > > > >>>
> > >
> > > > >>> Kreigh
> > >
> > > > >>>
> > >
> > > > >>>
> > >
> > > > >>> --
> > >
> > > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > > >>> Rockhounds at drizzle Mailing List
> > >
> > > > >>> Subscription Services:
> > >
> > > > >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > >
> > > > >>> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:
> > >
> > > > >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html
> > >
> > > > >>>
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >> --
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >> "The thunderbolt falls on an inch of ground; but the light of it
> > >
> > > > >> fills
> > >
> > > > >> the
> > >
> > > > >> horizon."
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >> Ralph Waldo Emerson
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >> J Bryan Krämer
> > >
> > > > >> North Florida, USA
> > >
> > > > >> photos at:
> > >
> > > > >> http://pbase.com/photoburner
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > >
> > > > >> multipart/alternative
> > >
> > > > >> text/plain (text body -- kept)
> > >
> > > > >> text/html
> > >
> > > > >> ---
> > >
> > > > >> --
> > >
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > > >> Rockhounds at drizzle Mailing List
> > >
> > > > >> Subscription Services:
> > >
> > > > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > >
> > > > >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:
> > >
> > > > >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html
> > >
> > > > >>
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > --
> > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > > > Rockhounds at drizzle Mailing List
> > >
> > > > > Subscription Services:
> > >
> > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > >
> > > > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:
> > >
> > > > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
> > >
> > > > > favorites,
> > >
> > > > > no registration required and great graphics – check it out!
> > >
> > > > > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/
> > >
> > > > > aol?redir=
> > >
> > > > > http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > >
> > > > > multipart/alternative
> > >
> > > > > text/plain (text body -- kept)
> > >
> > > > > text/html
> > >
> > > > > ---
> > >
> > > > > --
> > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > > > Rockhounds at drizzle Mailing List
> > >
> > > > > Subscription Services:
> > >
> > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > >
> > > > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:
> > >
> > > > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > --
> > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > > Rockhounds at drizzle Mailing List
> > >
> > > > Subscription Services:
> > >
> > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > >
> > > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:
> > >
> > > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > > multipart/alternative
> > > text/plain (text body -- kept)
> > > text/html
> > > ---
> > > --
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rockhounds at drizzle Mailing List
> > > Subscription Services:
> > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:
> > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > "The thunderbolt falls on an inch of ground; but the light of it fills
> the
> > horizon."
> >
> > Ralph Waldo Emerson
> >
> > J Bryan Krämer
> > North Florida, USA
> > photos at:
> > http://pbase.com/photoburner
> >
> >
> > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > multipart/alternative
> > text/plain (text body -- kept)
> > text/html
> > ---
> > --
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds at drizzle Mailing List
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:
> > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds at drizzle Mailing List
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:
> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html
>
--
"The thunderbolt falls on an inch of ground; but the light of it fills the
horizon."
Ralph Waldo Emerson
J Bryan Krämer
North Florida, USA
photos at:
http://pbase.com/photoburner
--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
text/plain (text body -- kept)
text/html
---
More information about the Rockhounds
mailing list