[Rockhounds] DIY XRD?

pmodreski at aol.com pmodreski at aol.com
Fri Oct 24 08:16:18 PDT 2008 

All interesting stuff.  As per what Jim Murowchick wrote, I had guessed that mostly low-energy ("soft") X-rays would be produced by the tape, and that was why they had to do the experiment in a vacuum.  (Even in air, the same X-rays are probably being produced, they are just immediately absorbed.)

Any time energetic electrons are produced, anywhere, and they have the opportunity to collide with atoms of most anything, there are probably some X-rays being produced, they just may not "amount to much".

And of course, as far as those home-made X-ray generating ideas from different kinds of vacuum tubes--that's the way X-rays were first discovered, AND, that's the way some of the early physics experiments thereby suffered and died from the then-unknown consequences of radiation exposure.  And the reason that conventional electron-gun TV's have those thick lead glass shields over the picture tube! (that are now an environmental concern for disposal).

P.S., and I have still never figured out what the heck the "DIY" stands for in the title for this phenomenon that we have been writing about!

cheeers to all,
Pete


-----Original Message-----
From: J Bryan Kramer <codeburner at gmail.com>
To: Rockhounds at drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors <rockhounds at lists.drizzle.com>
Sent: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 8:57 am
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] DIY XRD?



My guess is that it is Bremsstrahlung
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung>
See the section on secondary radiation. That would imply softer X-rays than
ou would get from a metal target. In the air the energy is probably
issapated ionizing the air molecules and you get light flashes. You can see
hose by taking a roll of tape into a dark closet and jerking some off the
oll. You'll see blue flashes: triboluminescence.
<http://pages.towson.edu/ladon/wg/candywww.htm>
For some fun experiments.
BK
On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 10:37, Axel Emmermann <axel.emmermann at pandora.be>wrote:
> Hi Kreigh and Brian



 There are X-rays generated but what else?



 There are only a few ways to generate X-rays:



 1.        Heat. The longest X-ray wavelengths are situated around 10 nm.
  To
 have anything emit x-rays, you must heat it to at least a few 100.000
 degrees.
 I don't think that we can reach that amount of heat by tearing of a piece
 of
 tape, not even in vacuum.

 2.       ionizing atoms (K and L levels for lighter atoms, M,N, O for
 heavier elements) and have them fall back to ground state.
 You'd need a X-ray source to do that. Pulling off a piece of tape from a
 roll would break some bonds in the glue but that would affect only the
 outer
 electrons.

 3.       Changing the speed and direction of a charged particle moving at
 relativistic speed.



 All other sources would be some disguised form of the above…



 There may be another explanation for the radiation that lies outside the
 properties of matter . I believe that it could be space itself that
 generates the radiation.

 I'd go looking for an explanation in the field of quantum fluctuation and
 Casimir-effect.

 It would explain why the phenomenon only occurs in vacuum.



 Axel Emmermann

 European Regional Vice President of the

 Fluorescent Mineral Society

 <http://www.uvminerals.org/>

 =========================

 Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen/Antwerp Mineralogical Society

 <http://www.minerant.org/index.html>

 Werkgroepleider/Workgroup leader: Fluorescerende mineralen/Fluorescent
 minerals

 Technische Realisaties/Engineering

 My website:<http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/>





 > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

 > Van: rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com
 [mailto:rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com]

 > Namens Kreigh Tomaszewski

 > Verzonden: vrijdag 24 oktober 2008 6:34

 > Aan: Rockhounds at drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors

 > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] DIY XRD?

 >

 > The x-rays are produced in a fairly narrow beam because of the angle

 > between the tape roll and the tape being pulled off it.

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > On Thursday, Oct 23, 2008, at 09:55 America/Detroit, Pmodreski at aol.com

 > wrote:

 >

 > > Ah, yes, now, let's not throw too much cold water on Kreigh's cool

 > > idea.

 > > Who knows, "in theory" it might work, but in practice... yeah, the

 > > amount of

 > > X-rays produced are probably very miniscule, and although in theory

 > > one might

 > > filter out just one wavelength of X-rays, in practice what one is

 > > starting

 > > with is probably too spread over a range of X-ray wavelengths, to be

 > > useful.

 > > And the X-rays are probably emitted in all directions, not focused

 > > geometrically at all, so by the time one collimated just the ones

 > > traveling in a

 > > particular direction toward the sample, one would again lose 99% of

 > > the tiny  amount

 > > that had been produced...  There was also the caveat in the story,

 > > that the

 > > X-rays were only detectable when the experiment was done in a vacuum

 > > chamber.

 > >

 > > I wonder, if a miniscule amount of X-rays are produced in any

 > > electrical

 > > discharge, where high-voltage electrons are hitting something; as in a

 > > lightning

 > > bolt, or even, in a static electricity discharge when you shuffle

 > > across the

 > > rug  and touch your finger to something metal?  Seems like that and

 > > the Scotch

 > >  Tape, are just different versions of the same thing.  That would be

 > > even

 > > the simpler way to generate the X-rays for Kreigh's homemade

 > > mini-diffractometer!

 > >

 > > Cheers, and keep at it, Kreigh,

 > > Pete

 > >

 > >

 > > In a message dated 10/22/2008 7:49:23 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,

 > > Kreigh at tomaszewski.net writes:

 > >

 > > Bryan,

 > >

 > > The Bragg Equation requires the wavelength. Coherent  x-rays from an

 > > incoherent source are fairly easy to produce using a small  aperture

 > > monochromator. That problem was solved about a hundred years  ago.

 > >

 > > I agree that the real problem is the energy. There has to be  enough at

 > > some wavelength to produce a detectable beam out of the filtered

 > > source. I assume there is enough since they were able to x-ray a

 > > finger, but it might require a slower scan than a commercial unit; it

 > > is easy to make x-ray detection cumulative.

 > >

 > > How long will a roll of  tape last? How many times can it be reused? I

 > > would be really happy to be  able to get an analysis for the cost of a

 > > roll of  tape.

 > >

 > > Kreigh

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > > On Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008, at 20:58  America/Detroit, J Bryan Kramer

 > > wrote:

 > >

 > >> Doesn't x-ray  energy/wavelength make a difference for x-ray

 > >> diffraction? I

 > >>  read that scotch tape article and it didn't sound like you could

 > >>  control

 > >> much beyond being able to produce some sort of x-rays in  bursts.

 > >>

 > >> BK

 > >>

 > >> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 20:44,  Kreigh Tomaszewski

 > >>  <Kreigh at tomaszewski.net>wrote:

 > >>

 > >>> I've often wished I  could move a lab into my basement and do x-ray

 > >>>  analysis

 > >>> of minerals, but cost makes it just a  dream.

 > >>>

 > >>> Now it has been discovered that unrolling  scotch take in a vacuum

 > >>> produces

 > >>>  x-rays.

 > >>>

 > >>>

 > >>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081022/ap_on_sc/>>>
 sci_scotch_tape_surprise

 > >>>

 > >>>  Using a roll of tape, a small motor to unwind it, and a vacuum pump,

 > >>> to

 > >>> produce a source of x-rays turns the dream into a  possible do it

 > >>> yourself

 > >>>  project.

 > >>>

 > >>> The database for comparison against known  minerals is available at

 > >>> places

 > >>> such as  http://rruff.geo.arizona.edu/AMS/amcsd.php. The rest of the

 > >>>  details are relatively trivial once you have a source of  x-rays.

 > >>>

 > >>>  http://productsearch.machinedesign.com/mdproducts/x_ray_diffraction

 > >>>

 > >>>  Anybody interested in a science project?

 > >>>

 > >>>  Kreigh

 > >>>

 > >>>

 > >>> --

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 > >>

 > >>

 > >>  --

 > >>

 > >>

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 > >> horizon."

 > >>

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