[Rockhounds] Volcanos, earthquakes and things

[Kreigh Tomaszewski]

Axel,

Let me throw a few comments inline...


Axel Emmermann wrote:
> 
> Kreigh,
> 
> This response is so overdue that I had to dust off the original message
> first ;-))
> I've been busy doing stuff for all the clubs that I'm in and some of that
> stuff actually has deadlines.


I love deadlines. They make a great whooshing sound as they fly by.		;-}


> 
> The p-holes are relatively new to me. I heard of them but they were outside
> the scope of my interest... Now they are inside by necessity. I can't very
> well ignore a source of luminescence, can I? ;-)))


I hope you also saw my link to http://www.nmsr.org/eqlights.htm.


> 
> Think I'll give up on making some coherent report about "geospychic
> anomalies" anytime soon. I should limit the field of my interests to what
> remains manageable and not wonder off too much on divergent paths.


<Something about resisting the lures of serpents...>


> 
> I can see (not completely but "energy-scale-wise") how migrating p-holes can
> generate EFL/ULF  but I wonder at which speed this migration can happen
> through rock and what the parameters are that have effect on it.
> Conductivity, water content, composition,...?


Lab measurements put the phase velocity of p-holes in rock at 200 meters
per second (+-50). Rock type and/or water content don't seem to have a
significant effect on the velocity at the current level of accuracy in
measurement if I understood the publications correctly.


> 
> As recombination of electrons with p-holes has no specific energy, the
> resulting EM-emissions should not be quantized, or should they?


P-holes seem to have a 1-1 correspondence with real electrons, and they
can make a current flow. I would expect them to be quantized like
electrons (but with an opposing sign).


> If they are the cause of quake lights one might expect an area where a cloud
> of p-holes surfaces to light up in infrared too. Perhaps more so than in
> balls of visible light. It has to since the cloud of p-holes is in fact a
> wave of ionization that propagates through the rock. Wouldn't recombination
> of an electron with a group of atoms where a p-hole resides result in at
> least one atom per p-hole falling back to it's ground state? Usually this
> relaxation involves numerous infrared emissions.


There is a group of researchers that are using satellite IR to find
active fault lines. They are piggybacking research on satellites
normally used for other observations and have to schedule their work in
gaps around the primary use. It only works when the ground area is cloud
free, but is quite effective.


> 
> About ELF/ULF: would it be the rock that emits the EM-signals or a body of
> flowing groundwater? I would compare the idea with a conductor that is
> moving through a magnetic field... Kind of a linear dynamo?


My current understanding is that groundwater is providing the current
path to connect areas rich in electrons with areas rich in p-holes to
'connect the ends of the battery' and conduct a current flow through
what is essentially a longwire antenna. Molten rock on the faces of
sliding faults, and the earth as a semiconductor are other leading
possibilities for the 'wire'; the former may be primary in the fairly
unique signals produced during an earthquake (and up to an hour before).


> 
> It's certainly an exciting idea to be able to immediately pinpoint an
> impending quake through monitoring radio waves.


It only works on quakes 5.5 or stronger, and the quake must be above 6.0
for it to be reliable. My 'amateur' working group is trying to get three
reporting stations up on an accurate enough timebase to make reliable
triangulations (with almost no funding); we think we are on the right
track to turn hindsight into prediction. 


> 
> Now resulting from what I just learned from this I have to wonder:
> Can quartz, tourmaline and other piezoelectric minerals feel the directional
> orientation of electric fields while they crystallize? They have a distinct
> electric property along one of their axes. Would it stand to reason that
> when such minerals start crystallizing from a melt would align this axis
> with the ruling electrical field?
> Keeping in mind that granite crystallizes/solidifies in the order:
> feldspar-mica-quartz. Quartz having to settle with the remaining place but
> having a choice of orientation in an otherwise already fixed location (or do
> I see that wrong?)
> It's just a logical series of events that hinges on the question if
> piezo-crystals can feel an existing electric field and align accordingly.
> It would be interesting to follow up since plutonites are only possible in
> geologically active areas which is exactly where we would also find the
> P-holes... Or wouldn't we?


OK. Hardening sea-floor from spreading faults captures the earth's
magnetic field and can be mapped. It is how we know about the wanderings
of the earth's magnetic poles (including reversals) going back a long
way. Lets say it works in theory and some practice.

Above about 500 C rock produces n-holes when stressed instead of p-holes
(Friedemann's lab work). If your plutonic rocks formed around this
thermal level they could be oriented vertically by an n-hole/p-hole
battery connected thru the melt, otherwise they probably are oriented
randomly as a battery could form in any direction around the stressed
melt. Any plutonic melt is unlikely near the surface where earthquakes
occur. 

Electrical effects seem to be more subtle than magnetic effects.
Interesting question.

I think it more likely that a study of (micro) crystal orientation in
samples of plutonic rock would find randomness rather than a preferred
orientation within a specimen. But I'll be happy to leave it unproved
until someone wants to slice up a chunk of rock and measure the crystal
orientations of all the grains to see if there is a preferred
orientation by mineral type.

Kreigh


> 
> Héhé, finally... Time I got that of our chest ;-)
> 
> Cheers
> Axel
> 
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com
> > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com] Namens Kreigh
> > Tomaszewski
> > Verzonden: woensdag 9 januari 2008 5:01
> > Aan: Rockhounds at drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem
> > collectors
> > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Volcanos, earthquakes and things
> >
> > Axel,
> >
> > Almost any rock will generate p-holes when stressed according
> > to Friedemann Freund at NASA. The p-holes migrate to the
> > surface and give rise to earthquake lights and other effects.
> > If there is a current path (such as groundwater) a 'battery'
> > can form, and the current flow can generate ELF/ULF radio
> > signals to warn of a pending earthquake from the increasing
> > rock stress.
> >
> > A couple days ago Friedemann posted some of his papers on
> > this to a working group on an earthquake precursor research
> > List we have both been part of for years. You can download
> > the five PDF files at
> >
> >       http://www.da4e.nl/download/Friedemann/
> >
> > It is not necessary to invoke quartz, piezoelectricity, or
> > electrons when mobile p-holes can carry the charge.
> >
> > The advantage of using ELF/ULF precursor signals is that only
> > three receiving stations are needed to cover the earth. The
> > expensive part is setting up highly accurate time
> > syncronization between the stations so that triangulation can
> > be done on speed of light signals.
> >
> > The main difficulty is filtering out the relevant precursor
> > signals from all the other radio signal noise generated in
> > the low frequency ranges by the Earth, Sun, and the universe
> > at large. BTW, many single station 'observatories' have
> > captured clear precursor signals ranging from minutes to
> > about 72 hours in advance of an earthquake (average of about
> > an hour to half a day warning).
> >
> > There is strong evidence that snakes, and birds (and most
> > other animals to a lesser extent), can sense the p-hole
> > charges. China has set up snake farms and monitors them (and
> > zoos) to warn of earthquakes. The snakes exit their dens and
> > try to escape to open ground a few hours before an
> > earthquake. Lost dog and cat reports spike shortly before an
> > earthquake.
> >
> > Some humans can 'hear' the precursor signals and even sense direction.
> > The presumed method is that the radio signals affect the
> > magnetite that most animals have in their inner ear cells.
> > The magnetite in the ear of birds is how they can navigate in
> > the earth's magnetic field; birds can migrate because they
> > have a compass in their head. It probably explains humans
> > that have a 'sense of direction'. BTW, the magnetite helps
> > you know which way is 'up'.
> >
> > It never ceases to amaze me where the pursuit of our shared
> > hobby of Rockhounding leads me to. I hope some of this info
> > I've found is useful to you.
> >
> > Kreigh
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Kreigh & Kitty & all,
> > >
> > > I'm gathering data for a speech on the subject for my club.
> > A somewhat
> > > frivolous speech since none of the below has been confirmed
> > by solid
> > > research as far as I know. More like exploring an idea than a real
> > > speech
> > > ;-)))
> > >
> > > It seems that compression of quartz bearing rock layers
> > generates the
> > > cumulative effect of the piezo-electric field of billions of tiny
> > > quartz crystals.
> > > The reason for this is that quartz crystals grow with their c-axis
> > > aligned with the earth's gravitational field. So , any
> > plutonite with
> > > micro-crystals of quartz would have those crystals aligned
> > following
> > > it's orientation to the earth's axis at the time it solidified.
> > > Pressure on the rock in the direction of the c-axis of the crystals
> > > would generate tiny electric fields round each crystal. The effect
> > > (although I think that it still needs some
> > > proof) may be the cause of the so called quake-lights. It
> > may even be
> > > strong enough to directly influence sensory perception and cause
> > > hallucinations in persons that are susceptible to it: UFO
> > sightings,
> > > alien abduction stories, ghost apparitions, feelings of
> > anxiety, elfs,
> > > cobolds... A lot of myth and perhaps even man's inclination to
> > > religion and mysticism may have begun here.
> > >
> > > In this respect I would find it logical that if seismic disturbance
> > > creates strong electrical fields it also causes ELF/VLF emissions.
> > >
> > > I'm still looking for a way to measure flutuations of the elctric
> > > field of quartz bearing rock when compressed near breaking point.
> > > ;-)))
> > >
> > > I'd like the opinion of a geologist on this one very much.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Axel
> > >
> > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > > > Van: rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com
> > > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces at lists.drizzle.com] Namens Kreigh
> > > > Tomaszewski
> > > > Verzonden: dinsdag 8 januari 2008 5:39
> > > > Aan: Rockhounds at drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem
> > > > collectors
> > > > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Volcanos, earthquakes and things
> > > >
> > > > Kitty,
> > > >
> > > > Most earthquake researchers tend to agree that each earthquake
> > > > reduces stress locally, but transfers it to adjacent
> > regions. NASA
> > > > has a pretty good predictive system if you care about
> > where but not
> > > > when. It continues to get better.
> > > >
> > > > There is also good evidence that earthquakes emit ELF/VLF radio
> > > > signals hours to days before, and also during, the
> > seismic event. I
> > > > know of several groups working to make this reliable.
> > Even minutes
> > > > of warning for an earthquake would save many lives.
> > > >
> > > > If you are at all interested in earthquakes I suggest you visit
> > > >
> > > >       http://www.iris.edu/seismon/
> > > >
> > > > The global view is a great summary, but you can drill down to raw
> > > > data from most of the seismic stations in the world. It
> > is a great
> > > > resource.
> > > >
> > > > Kreigh
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I remember as a young child (more than half a century ago)
> > > > asking my
> > > > > parents why it seemed that when there was an earthquake on
> > > > one side of
> > > > > the world there often was another one soon after on the
> > > > other side of
> > > > > the world.  My father (who was an electrical engineer at Bell
> > > > > Labs) said it was just coincidence.  My mom (who was
> > the Franklin
> > > > > fluorescent mineral fan, but with no college education)
> > used the
> > > > > opportunity to show me a globe and see that some of those
> > > > events that
> > > > > I thought were directly opposite, were not (we often forget
> > > > how truly
> > > > > large the Pacific Ocean is!).   I had actually thought
> > maybe there
> > > > > was a kind of slosh effect from the liquid magma in the
> > > > center of the
> > > > > earth.  My dad simply laughed, and my mom said it was a
> > > > good idea but
> > > > > scientists hadn't talked about it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, JR & Martha, here is a copy of part of an email I sent
> > > > just this
> > > > > last August 16.  I sent it to a friend of ours, George
> > Polman, a
> > > > > geologist and fluorescent mineral dealer, after he asked
> > > > how we were
> > > > > doing after news of a hurricane heading for Hawaii:
> > > > >
> > > > > <Yeah, we've had a scary several days here on the Big Island.
> > > > > Hurricane Flossie actually petered out last night leaving
> > > > only a lot
> > > > > of rain and high surf---and frayed nerves.  Then
> > yesterday we had
> > > > > a few hours of worry about a potential tsunami caused by the
> > > > earthquake
> > > > > in Peru, which also turned out not to happen.  And
> > we've had three
> > > > > earthquakes here this week, the last was at 3 this
> > morning at 4.5
> > > > > intensity.  Do you have any ideas as a geologist if
> > there is any
> > > > > connection between earthquakes around the world?  August 8: Java
> > > > > - 7.6, August 12: Spain- 5.4, August 13: Kilauea 5.4,
> > > > August 15: Peru
> > > > > - 7.9, August 16: Kilauea 4.5.  I'd imagine the ones here are
> > > > > different because they are due to magma shifting.  As for other
> > > > > volcanoes:  Philippines' Bulusan July 31, Indonesia's
> > > > Sulawesi August
> > > > > 14, and Alaska's Cleveland in the Aleutians is beginning to
> > > > act up a
> > > > > bit.  What do you think? >
> > > > >
> > > > > His answer was that there was no evidence that he knew of
> > > > to connect
> > > > > earthquakes in different locations.
> > > > >
> > > > > Aloha, Kitty
> > > > >
> > > > > At 03:42 PM 1/6/2008, you wrote:
> > > > > >Hi:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Well, Martha got a book about the 1906 SF earthquake,
> > > > which is loaded
> > > > > >with geo facts.  She reads me some of the factoids that
> > > > strike her as
> > > > > >interesting or surprising.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >One recent one was that there was a huge volcanic eruption
> > > > (Vesuvius
> > > > > >I think?) 17 days before the 'quake. Then today on one of the
> > > > > >news shows there was a mention of someone being killed in an
> > > > eruption.  We
> > > > > >didn't catch where, so she said "Google it" so I did.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Much to my surprise, there were a lot of new volcanic
> > eruptions
> > > > > >in the news today!  One was in Chile, where they were
> > > > rescuing tourists,
> > > > > >and one was in the Red Sea, near Yemen, where they talked
> > > > about how
> > > > > >bright the glow was from the lava.  I think there were
> > > > others too...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Should I be strapping the bookcases to the wall?  I'm being
> > > > > >deliberately - what's the word, maybe obtuse? - here, but
> > > > isn't it a
> > > > > >little odd to have several volcanoes go off at once?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I'm in WV, where there are several thousand feet of stable
> > > > > >sedimentary rock between me and the real basement.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I did feel an earthquake here once, 3.? on the Richter
> > > > scale, while I
> > > > > >was driving on a bridge over the Kanawha River, I thought
> > > > a towboat
> > > > > >had hit a bridge pier - it wasn't too long after the Silver
> > > > > >Bridge collapsed.  It would have been really scary in an
> > > > > >underground coal mine, you bet!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Speaking of Richter, Martha tells me (the earthquake
> > book says)
> > > > > >he was an avid nudist and famously sexually active - I guess
> > > > > >that's easier in California.  Is there some famous geo-gossip
> > > > > >about him beyond his work on earthquakes?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >JR
> > > >
> >
> > --
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